Key Points

[00:03:30] Making the transition from Facebook Ad Manager to VP Ops Manager

[00:06:18] How to manage communication effectively with an ads management team

[00:08:56] What to do when your team makes mistakes

[00:12:03] How to approach working with a team member who has their own way of doing things

[00:15:31] When clients insist on taking an approach you don’t 100% agree with

[00:21:03] Telltale signs a team member isn’t a good fit for your team even when their technical skills are fine

[00:28:08] What’s working now with Facebook Ads

Jody: Welcome to this episode of Online Confidential, where we’re really going behind the scenes of Secret Ad Manager business with our special guest today, Angela Ponsford.

Angela welcome!

Angela: [00:09:30] Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Jody: Now, for those of you who don’t know, Angela, if you’re listening to Perpetual Traffic, you may have seen her or heard her a few times popping up on the show as she is right up there. I’ll let her tell you all about Tier 11. She knows her stuff.

Angela’s been doing Facebook ads for a while now, and not just Facebook ads. She has grown into a leadership role transitioning from that technician of being hands on with the tools to [00:10:00] now being a leader at the company. So really excited to hear her journey. And all the ins and outs and things that she’s learned as she manages people now, not just managing ad accounts.

So, Angela, for those who don’t have the pleasure of knowing you, tell us a bit about yourself. How you got into this crazy world of Facebook ads and, and to where you are today.

Angela: Yep, totally. Thanks. So I got into it after having my twins in 2009. Being at home, I knew that I wasn’t going to go back to work [00:10:30] anytime soon.

I’d been dabbling in online advertising, online marketing with a local company in Byron Bay. And then I just started doing that from home. So then I think it was in 2013 that I started Dotty Media, which was a Facebook ad agency and did that. So I’ve been running Facebook ads since, I think I did my first one in 2012.

Then I started working for Tier 11 in 2016, I [00:11:00] think. I started there as an ads manager then to media buyer. I was mentoring and managing other media buyers that were coming in. And now I’m the VP of Ops of Tier 11, so I oversee the whole team.

That includes Facebook media buyers, Google media buyers. Email marketing strategists, CRO funnel specialists. Basically anything to do with getting your business cranking [00:11:30] and converting clients. I oversee the whole team that does that now. So, definitely, I’ve made that switch from, I guess there’s a term, I think it’s one.

Gosh, I can’t remember her name now. ‘You can’t know it all’, there’s a book called, ‘You Can’t Know It All’. She talks about going from expert leadership to kind of spanning leadership. I definitely have made that transition now where I’ve had to let go of my technical expertise badge that I wore along with my ego and that’s a challenge.

I guess we can maybe get into that when we’re talking. [00:12:00]

Jody: Absolutely. What a huge transition that is from running ads. And I think this is something that I heard happens a lot of the time where somebody does really well. Like when you’re working somewhere, you do really well, you get promoted and you end up getting promoted to these places where it’s not exactly your sweet spot, right?

And it’s like, oh, but my sweet spot’s here, or this is where I best perform. However, you’ve got such an amazing brain. That ops transition for you has been such a [00:12:30] natural progression, but like you just said there, maybe not easy for the ego, right? Because you’re running ads and then it’s a new level, new devil.

You question yourself. Imposter syndrome. So tell us a bit about that.

Angela: Absolutely. It’s actually been quite a longer transition than I would have hoped or expected. It really is, you’ve got this badge. I was known for a long time, as you know, and people still come to me asking about Facebook ads and of course I still understand what’s going on [00:13:00] in the accounts.

I’m in the accounts. I’m not in the accounts every day now, but I’m in most days just checking things. But at a very surface level now because I’ve got an amazing team that is now running the ads, and I’ve got an amazing Head of Performance who’s really on the ball with it. But letting go of that title and what you’re known for, it just messes with your head.

I’ve done a fair bit of reading on it because there’s been a lot of studies on it and apparently it’s women, of [00:13:30] course, it’s harder for women to make that transition mentally. Not to make it from a skills level or practically, but just mentally to be able to step into that new leadership role.

So I’ve had to do a lot of work on that and had to do a lot of soul searching and a lot of mentoring with my boss Ralph as well around how I’m seen, and how I portray myself. But I love doing the VP Ops role. One of the [00:14:00] things that I really love, and it’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but I love living in chaos.

I kind of thrive in chaos, which I think is why I loved Facebook ads so much. I really love the oh no, this is not working. Or, I know Facebook ads are a little bit different these days since iOS, but I enjoy that sense of there’s things that are changing and we have to flip and we have to adapt and we have to improvise and we have to come up with new plans to get places.

And [00:14:30] so the role I’m doing now absolutely still nurtures that part of me. But then with just a little bit more, probably a big bit more of the planning and a bit more of the strategy than what I was doing before. But it’s been a journey for sure.

Jody: Awesome. Okay, so there’s two points that I’d like to dig into further there.

One of them is, and we’ll circle back to this one, it’s that transition being women and going to that next level. But the other one first we’ll talk about is the chaos, because as [00:15:00] we know, Facebook is always changing. No two campaigns can ever be the same. Right?

And what’s worked one day can be different the next day. Clients, especially with the coaching and digital course spaces that my guys tend to work with. One will do a bootcamp, one will have an evergreen webinar, there’ll be an application funnel. There’s so many variations, and then a four day timer after the webinar.

So there’s so much chaos there. But when we’re working with a team and we have other people working with us, we still need to have some processes and order to that. [00:15:30] So how do you combine that chaos and the systems for having a process to follow?

Angela: Yeah, great question. So, we use Slack for communication, and that’s internal and external with clients and we use Asana. The two, certainly with Slack, we are very, very strict on our use of Slack.

We actually have very, I’d say strict, I mean, it’s not strict in the, ‘you must do that’, but kind of sometimes, [00:16:00] there’s very specific ways we have to use Slack. We’re very specific about keeping things grouped together. We have specific channels that we keep information in and we are all coached around if someone’s putting someone something in a different or wrong channel, or if someone’s DMing you, you bring it back out for visibility. And that way we maintain visibility across the team. So that’s one thing.

Then we have processes for everything that we do and that’s generally in Asana. [00:16:30] So we use that as a project management tool. We’ve got SOPs for everything so that for managing campaigns, there’s a specific document that every client must have and that’s got the links out to all the other documents.

And we’re very diligent on maintaining those documents and also those processes. That’s what I would say are the two big things, and one of our core values is radical candor. And so it’s making sure that people [00:17:00] feel safe to voice when something’s wrong or they’re not feeling comfortable or they made a mistake because we’re all human and I know I’ve set campaigns live, you know, with mistakes in them.

Then, you feel so dumb afterwards, but like every single person does it. And so it’s just encouraging the team that it’s okay if mistakes were made, but as soon as we notice it we have a process on how to fix it and people just know that they’re supported in that.

[00:17:30] I’d say those are the main things to combat the chaos.

Jody: Absolutely. Having that permission to accept that you’ve done something wrong and you’ll feel terrible, right? You will feel terrible. Oh my gosh, I’ve set these live, or the wrong url. Or you’ve put an extra zero when it was a hundred dollars a day.

Oh, it’s a thousand. I did that once and the person just said, well, did they convert ? So I was like, yes, phew! So things do [00:18:00] happen. So yes, you will feel bad. And the last thing that person needs is to get roused on because what are they going to do next time? They’re not going to want to tell you.

And then it’s quiet, so you want to keep it in the open and acknowledge we are all human.

Angela: Yeah, totally.

Jody: So having those systems, like you said with Slack, referring people back to the right place. I find myself doing that all the time.

We have Slack kind of as a shoulder tap place, and then tasks get put over [00:18:30] in Asana and I will go to Slack and start saying, Hey, can you do this? And it’s like, ah, no, delete, put it over in Asana.

Angela: Totally.

Jody: So there’s those systems that people know where to look and like you also mentioned it’s saying here’s the process for what to do on the accounts each day and the documents that you have for people.

I think for ad managers, that’s such a hard thing to get out of our head, when we’re used to doing it all. So actually looking at those processes, putting it down and then entrusting somebody else to do it.

Angela: [00:19:00] Yeah. And I know that’s something a lot of our media buyers struggle with and I struggled with as well when I was running ads for that exact reason. You know how you would run things and it can be a real challenge to empower somebody else to do that for you. We have some media buyers that they’re just, no, I just want to run on my own.

I’m happy on my own, I can do more on my own actually. And we’re pretty flexible with that, but obviously we’ve got some larger [00:19:30] clients that you know it’s large spend and we just need multiple people on it. So then, just having those checks and balances in place to make sure that we know, okay, you’re responsible for this.

This is I guess a tactical, practical tip that we do with bigger accounts. We’ll maybe split up within the account, different parts or say it’s an eCommerce brand and we’re running for different products, one person might be responsible for one product and one might be responsible for the other product.

So they’re not in there [00:20:00] touching the same campaigns because that’s when it can get challenging to keep on top of things. It can take a lot more time. So it’s just finding ways around that. If you have got two people working in an account as well.

Jody: Yes, which is pretty huge.

And I guess that’s where something like naming conventions comes into it. So while you might have like, oh, I’ll just call it whatever, and when there’s somebody else working on the account, it’s not terribly helpful because one of the biggest time sucks is when you’ve got to look at something, [00:20:30] find something or figure something out.

Making something as clear as possible, keeping that across the board, that this is how it’s all named. So for us as the one who’s the founder and running it initially. Being disciplined to follow your own rules, I think is a big one.

So when you’re talking about when you’ll get ad managers on board, I expect you get some pretty experienced ad managers on board, and like you said, they’re used to doing things their own way.

How do you manage the shift from it’s their way to [00:21:00] your preferred systems? How do you really get clear? Because what we see happens sometimes is we might give instructions. This is the task, and then the ad manager has done something a bit different. just because it’s their own thinking or their process, which has not been ours.

So how do you really open up that communication to try and understand where they’re coming from and why they’re thinking like that? Versus this is how we do things.

Angela: Great question. And that’s comes in with coaching [00:21:30] the leaders, the people that are overseeing them with how to ask good questions and how to be coaches often rather than managers.

It’s something I know I’ve done when I was a new manager. It’s like, no, don’t do it like that. This is how I would do it and I’m kind of telling them. The more experienced I got as a manager and now how I’m coaching my managers to be, is you can ask them why, or not ‘why’ because ‘why’ can actually can be quite an inflammatory word to ask if you’re a manager.

Okay, instead, what [00:22:00] was their thought process in doing that? And just trying to ask these questions in a nurturing way and getting them to explain, because sometimes you’ll find that it’s actually a much better set up the way that they’ve done it. It’s something that you hadn’t thought of.

It’s that constant reiteration for managers. Yes, we have a specific way of doing things, but really, as long as the naming convention is correct and there’s a level of organization and it’s all documented, they might know a better way of doing it. They might have found a better [00:22:30] way, and we should be open.

Because the platform’s changing all the time and one day it can be great. The other, not, and we should be open to other practices, but we should always challenge them on what the thought process was when they were doing that. And I mean, often you’ll find that maybe 50/50 sometimes, it’s like, ‘well, that’s just how I’ve always done it. I didn’t think, I didn’t read the SOP’.

Or actually, ‘I think this works. I’ve seen it work before’, and then it’s like, okay, then maybe we can incorporate that as another alternative in our SOP [00:23:00]. It’s just being open to constant learning, being open to asking questions that aren’t demanding and confronting.

And when I say about the why, you know, it’s like, why did you do that? That’s instantly a confronting question for someone, especially if it’s coming from their boss. So how can you rephrase that? Ask exactly the same question, but just phrase it in a way that is nurturing for them and that they want to open up and tell you about it.

Jody: Love it. And I love how you’ve said coaching rather than managing gives it a whole different feel. [00:23:30] Right? And that’s what we are doing. Like when we’ve got an ad manager on board, it’s coming from that coaching thing of okay, so this is xyz, how we might do this on this account.

But always being open, because like you said, Facebook is always changing. There are some rules that can’t be broken, like when a pixel gets installed, the pixel goes here, use a purchase, a conversion campaign, et cetera. There are still just times where there can be like, you know outliers that can still work that [00:24:00] people have been testing or have heard about.

It’s always a testing game on Facebook. And so for us it’s that matter of well, one, does the client have budget for this bit of testing, but also having an open mind to go, okay, let’s see how that goes.

Angela: I’m just going through this situation right now where we have a client and their CMO is very experienced and has said things should be run like this. I want them run like this.

And our team maybe don’t disagree with [00:24:30] everything that they’re saying, but it’s like we shouldn’t just dismiss these suggestions out of hand just because they’re completely opposite to what we’re doing. Where we can, let’s split test them. If it’s possible, let’s split test them.

And if not, let’s give feedback on why we don’t think that’s a good idea. It’s not them versus us. We’re a partnership and let’s work together to figure out what suggestions can we incorporate and test? And which ones do we genuinely think are [00:25:00] going to really affect the performance in the account?

I mean, it’s always a challenge when you work with clients. Ultimately, it’s their account, it’s their business, and if they really, really, really want to try something, even though we are the experts, the ads managers are the experts. Sometimes we have to acquiesce to what they want us to do, and then we just have to be diligent in making sure we’re monitoring results, making sure that we’re reporting back and whether this is working or not.

[00:25:30] We talked a little bit about ego before but when you’re working with clients, you just have to put that ego at the door and you have to be open and collaborative with suggestions they’re making even if you don’t think they’re the best idea.

Jody: For sure. I think possibly at the level that you guys are working at these people have had success with their own ads to some sort of point. They may have been running, and this is what I’ll always say, possibly the trickiest client that you’ll ever [00:26:00] get is someone who’s been running ads themselves.

Angela: Always.

Jody: Because they’re going to be all over it. They would ideally know their avatar, their audiences, and whatever. And so when they see why have they done this? Why have they done this? They may be tempted to turn the ad off. Or go, why is this? So again, communication is going to be such a big thing when working with clients in that situation. I’ve recently just had someone helping out on my ads and it was like, don’t be that person. Don’t be that person.

Angela: It’s hard [00:26:30] as you said. It’s your business. It’s your business. And they desperately want it to work. And if they’ve been running the ads themselves, a hundred percent, they are the worst clients usually.

Jody: Yes. So communication, key there to just earn that trust.

Angela: That’s it. That’s exactly what it’s about. It’s earning the trust, it’s collaborating and earning the trust that you know what you’re doing. Yeah.

Jody: Okay. Circling back to [00:27:00] what you said earlier. You were going from that transition where you were on the tools, you were doing the ads, and then you started to elevate through the company.

You would have ad managers then doing the job. So when you first started having people to maybe assign tasks to, how did you find that? Was that a bit of a tricky thing to go, oh, I’ll just do it. Or were you able to go, nope, I can hand it over.

Angela: Initially, absolutely. I would quite often default back to [00:27:30] I’ll just do it. I’ll just do it myself. But then, you realize, and I’ve been very lucky because Ralph, my boss, has been incredibly supportive of me in this journey and coaching me through. He knows that’s a weakness of mine, that my default mode is just get it done, I’ll just do it.

He very actively coached me around stepping out of that. When I was first transitioning more into the management, I still had a very active management style. [00:28:00] So, getting on regularly with my direct reports and screen sharing, that was always the best way especially with something as tactile as Facebook ads.

Screen sharing, show me what you’re doing. You talk me through the process, let me see. And then just giving them advice based on that. So it was still a very active style of management. And then slowly moving away from that active style to giving them that trust.

I mean, [00:28:30] ultimately, if you’re going to manage people at some point, you’re going to have to trust them and if you can’t trust people, you shouldn’t be a manager or you shouldn’t be employing people because it defeats the purpose of why you would employ people to do a job for you that either you don’t want to do or don’t have the time to do anymore.

So it’s just believing in people, making sure that they’ve been given the right tools and been given enough rope. And some people could get more rope than others. Some people you give too much rope [00:29:00] and I think you make enough mistakes. It’s not that you have to make mistakes, but inevitably you will, as a new manager, you’ll give someone too much rope and something will go horribly wrong and you reevaluate and you reset and then you go again, and you’re a bit more cautious.

For me it was going very active and then it was a gradual transition into where I am now. A lot more hands off than what it was before.

Jody: [00:29:30] Okay, great. So with that then, you’re letting go of the ropes, you’ve hired somebody else, you’ve got them on board and you’re a few weeks in and you’ve got some concerns because you’re repeating yourself that this needs to be picked up or corrected a few times.

How do you actually know that? What’s some telltale signs that you may have seen that it’s like, okay, this person isn’t actually a good fit or, yes, there is still potential here. I just need [00:30:00] to look at some more systems or training. How do you decide the tool and when.

Angela: Great question. So like you, because you have the background as a private investigator, don’t you?

So you’ve got those investigative skills. In a previous life I was a forensic scientist, so I’ve got the spidey sense or whatever, the tools to kind of pick things up. There’s a few ways that I would pick it up, especially in a remote environment as well. It’s way more difficult than if you were in an office [00:30:30] with someone.

So if we’re talking specifically about Facebook ads, in the account, obviously there’s the account history, you can go in and check the change log. That’s probably one of the first places I’ll go if I think results aren’t where they’re meant to be, or if I don’t think that they’re actually implementing the changes that they should be.

Now I’ll caveat that. Activity doesn’t equal performance. Activity doesn’t equal whether you’re a good or a bad Facebook media buyer, but combined with other things, it’s definitely [00:31:00] something that if you’re not sure if someone’s putting the work in or making the right changes, that’s one way you can check in a remote environment.

Their comms in Slack is often one of the biggest telltale signs. So if there’s a lack of updates in the channel, if there’s radio silence in a Slack channel, that’s a bit of a red flag that I would want to investigate a little bit more, if they’re taking a long time to respond to questions or not even [00:31:30] acknowledging conversations that are going on in Slack, that’s also a red flag.

There’s a combination of things that are happening that you can check as a manager online. It’s not that you want to be spying on your people. You don’t want to have to be looking up on them, but if the results aren’t where they want to be and the client’s telling you, oh, we talked about this three weeks ago and it still hasn’t been implemented. There’s absolutely those things I would be looking on and checking. I mean, in Slack as well. [00:32:00] Again, this is very much, if you have a team and are you using something like Slack you can see their activity.

How active are they in Slack? I’d say 9 times out of 10, if we’ve had people on the team who are very, very inactive in Slack they’ve ended up leaving, either leaving or being fired because of other reasons, but they were telltale signs that they just weren’t a good fit. I think as well, just on that, before you even get the person in, just having a really good hiring process, just making sure that, [00:32:30] you know, hire slow, fire fast.

It’s so true. We’ve made mistakes when we’ve tried to hire too fast. But if you can get a robust process where you’re assessing people in a fair way, before you even get on a call with someone to interview them, that’s what we do.

We assess their technical skills. Without getting on a call with anyone. And then once you get on a call with someone, we’re already pretty sure that technically you know what you’re doing. [00:33:00] Then we’re just determining are they a good fit for our core values? Are they going to fit in with the team?

We make sure we don’t bring in the wrong people. We look at them. Going back to your question around how do you know when it’s just more coaching, more training that they need, I think that has to be your default as a manager. If you’re a good leader, a good manager, your default should always be looking at yourself.

What have I not done for them? What have I not given them? Have I not [00:33:30] provided them the right training? If you always come from that angle, initially, yes, you might notice some red flags, but if you come from that, okay, what can I give them that I would then expect them, say in a few weeks time or a couple of weeks time, to be doing something differently and then going that route.

I know the mistakes I’ve made as a more junior manager around instantly assuming that they’re the problem, when in reality I hadn’t given them the support for this or training for that. And so that’s always my default now. [00:34:00] It’s extreme ownership of whatever’s going, whatever things are not going right that are within your control, ie. you’re their manager and just owning that and then looking at it from that perspective.

Jody: Absolutely. And that’s a trick that a lot of us find is that we get to a point where all of a sudden I need help, and you just get someone on board and you just sort of throw some tasks at them without having a real sort of guideline as to like good onboarding. Even having them watch some trainings.

So, [00:34:30] with my elite ad manager people, I say, right, get your person to watch Elite. So they actually know how you work and what your systems are, your naming conventions, because sometimes if you’ve got someone who’s just been doing a lot of awareness campaigns, they’re not really going to understand what is a good KPI or good CPMs for a purchase conversion campaign.

They’re very different.

Angela: That’s it.

Jody: So education and yes, coming back to okay, they didn’t do [00:35:00] this. Why is it? Where did I miss a piece here in setting yourself up for success.

Angela: Yeah. And that’s not to say that certainly with Tier 11 if someone is doing a bad job, we’re very willing to take action and to let them go or tell them that.

But if you can take that step back first and just look inward. What, what could I have done? [00:35:30] And then you can move forward if it does come to the point where they’re not a good fit. And I would say, I’m just trying to think back on the time that I’ve been with Tier 11, for the most part, it’s been very, very rare that we fired someone based on their technical ability.

It’s usually been because they just haven’t been a good fit and they just can’t fit in with the way that we work. And so we’re doing each of us a favor by letting them [00:36:00] go and then letting them go on to do something that they really, really want to be doing, and that they are passionate about.

Jody: Yeah. Great. And that’s it, values or just the way that people may connect, even though they might have great technical abilities, if it just makes it very unpleasant sort of work environment that’s not ideal.

Angela: It’s not worth it. It’s not worth it for anyone because everybody’s unhappy at that stage.

Jody: Absolutely. Okay. So I do have to dig in and ask you [00:36:30] a bit of a technical question of what’s working now. So across your campaigns with coaches and course creators and I know it always comes back to the offer, right? Two people can have the same exact funnel and one’s doing great, one’s not because of the messaging and offer.

But what do you see as okay, this is something that we do see working quite well and maybe something to look at or find.

Angela: Really good question. Obviously the offer, making it simple, making [00:37:00] it as simple as possible for someone to come and buy. I know some of the Black Friday offers that we ran were complex and there were multiple CTAs on a page.

So one CTA on a page, this is all after the click stuff, we’re having some really good results with some simple images right now. In fact, an account where it’s a coaching program for kids. [00:37:30] It’s not young kids, but teenagers. And it’s post-it notes, post-it note images are working really well.

Jody: Oh, okay. Nice. Okay.

Angela: With something handwritten or writing on it. And that’s something super.

Jody: Yeah. Let me find a post-it note!

Angela: Yeah, I’ve got some nice different colored post-it notes here. Yeah. And if you’ve got some nice handwriting, I don’t know, for coaches and course creators, that [00:38:00] could work quite well.

So there you go. There’s an insider tip on something that’s working really well right now.

Jody: Okay, shall try that because we’re known for our post-it notes. We’ll have post-it notes everywhere. We’ll put up our plans on the wall with post-it notes.

Angela: Totally. It’s lots of different bright colors. Just need to kind of style the desktop nicely and take a nice photo.

Jody: And hire someone, here’s a hot tip, if you don’t have neat writing, I’m sure you can find someone on fiverr who could do it for you.

Angela: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jody: There’s [00:38:30] your work around because I don’t have good handwriting.

Angela: Yeah. Mine isn’t too bad, but it’s not as good as what we’ve got. I also think that whole, I mean this has been a trend that’s been around for a while, is more native looking ads. Something that’s natural, something that looks native. Obviously with TikTok, the rise in TikTok and a lot of the content that works on TikTok works on Facebook and Instagram as well, as ads.

It’s not that you have always have to use creator content because I think people [00:39:00] are becoming immune to the fake UGC content. It still works, but how can you still get native content out there that isn’t seen as being, oh no, not another influencer telling me that their life has been transformed by having this product or whatever.

Jody: Yes, yes, and yes, that’s right. It’s like I’ve seen a lot of that on TikTok, like a lot of those ones where it’s been like, I got [00:39:30] paid by whatever, by Nike for doing whatever, and yes, it’s like, oh, please. Okay.

Angela: Yes. It’s just try to be natural and a little bit unique at the same time.

Jody: And I think that works not just for our clients, but also for us as ad managers, right? As we need to get visible. Not just hide behind the computer, maybe make some of our own content, keeping that in mind as well with the content that we’re creating.

Angela: Yeah, totally. Savannah [00:40:00] Sanchez that does TikTok, she does a lot of her client’s content.

She’s mastered that skill, but especially if you’re an ads manager and you’re using the product, I think I’ve been in some client’s ads as well. You might see me around somewhere in someone’s ads.

Jody: You have. I think I even loaded up some that you were in one time.

Angela: There you go.

Jody: Awesome. Well, Angela, it’s been fantastic talking to you about [00:40:30] behind the scenes stuff of running ads for clients. Where can people connect with you or learn more about you, or if they want to make that transition from being their own business with Ad Manager and you go, I would just love to just run ads for people because that’s what I do and maybe get a gig at Tier 11. Where can they go?

Angela: Definitely. So if they go to tiereleven.com, and then there’s links there to any job openings we’ve [00:41:00] got and any info. If you wanna find me I guess I hang out on Twitter a lot. I don’t tweet very much. It’s something I consume a lot. I think I’m actually at Dotty Media still on Twitter, which was my original business name. So you can find me there if you message me on Twitter I absolutely see it because I’m in there every day. That’s where I consume all my business content mainly.

Jody: Good tip. I know Twitter is the place to be for that.

Angela: It is. It’s really good.

Jody: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Angela. It has [00:41:30] been a treat. Thank you guys for being with us today. Hope you found some little gold nuggets in all of that as you work with the team. So thanks again, Angela. Thanks everyone.

Angela: Thank you.

Jody: See you next time. Bye.