[00:04:32] The best way to find out what people really want
[00:06:05] Why Mara doesn’t use copy frameworks to write high converting copy
[00:08:16] An easy way to focus your message to really connect and resonate
[00:10:06] Mara’s epic Facebook ads campaign result
[00:14:09] Awesome storytelling tips to attract your ideal client in emails and social content
[00:22:58] What drives landing page conversions, is it copy or design?
Jody: [00:00:00] Welcome to this special episode of Online Confidential. I'm super excited to share a very special guest. If the online marketing world had a mafia family, this guest would be in it. She goes way back with deep roots in marketing and all the rest of it. So, without any further ado, welcome to today's show Mara Glazer.
Mara: Thank you so much for having me. No one's ever referred to us as the [00:00:30] marketing mafia before, but I'll take it.
Jody: That's awesome. I had the pleasure of meeting Mara, what is it? It was about 18 months ago down at St. Pete's. We got together for a nice little intimate mastermind that you pulled together and that was just so amazing.
Great to actually see you in person and connect. So for you guys who have not had the pleasure of Mara. I'll just tell you a little bit about her if you're intrigued also, what's this mafia family?
Well, Mara is actually known as [00:01:00] the world's best female direct response copywriter. Her father, Bill Glazer, is known to many as a direct response copywriter, Outrageous Marketing legend.
And you may have heard of the Glazer-Kennedy Empire. That's Mara's mafia family there. Mara and her team are direct response copywriters, and secretly write for many of the most successful and top earning entrepreneurs, marketers, influencers, and products right around the world.
So [00:01:30] you're in great hands with Mara today. I am super excited because in the busy online marketing space, knowing how to write great copy is essential. Even if you know how to load up ad campaigns and set up all the retargeting strategies, if your copy is off you're not going to make sales. So, Mara, here's a big question.
We'll just dive right into it. How do you get into the head of people's potential ideal buyer?
Mara: Awesome. Let's talk about it. [00:02:00] So one of the first lessons that my father taught me when he was teaching me how to write sales copy was ‘Don't ask, don't get’, and another lesson that he taught me was, ‘if you want to make a lot of money, all you need to do is ask your customers what they want and then give it to them’.
So what we're going to do is we're going to combine these two things together and the best way to get inside the mind of your buyer so they feel like you're totally reading their mind, like you totally get them, and [00:02:30] then they feel compelled to want to go ahead and buy, is to survey them. Survey your audience and find out their fears, their pains, their wants, their desires, their dreams, what they feel like they need help with.
And not just those answers, but those answers in their own words. That's the really important part here. Their own words. So there's a couple ways that you can do that. One way, if you have an email list, is to set up [00:03:00] a little survey through the free version of SurveyMonkey or Google Forms and ask some very specific questions. No more than 10.
Send that out and start to mine through their answers. Another way you can do this is if you do sales calls, that's a really great opportunity to get intel inside the mind of the person who would think about hiring you. So if you choose to go the first route, you want to make sure that you're asking open-ended questions, [00:03:30] that your questions aren't multiple choice, but rather open-ended questions where the survey respondent can answer in their own words, because you want to start to look for patterns inside of their answers and want to start to look for the actual words that they're using to explain their dreams, desires, fears, wants, et cetera.
You'll also gather that if you're doing this through the phone or through a sales call, And then make note of those words and make note of these commonalities so that you [00:04:00] can use them in your sales copy. So that's the really easy way that you can do it. Don't ask, don't get.
Jody: Don't ask, don't get.
Love it. And I love how you’re saying use their exact words. That is such a key, rather than getting something and then twisting it around or making something else out of it. Use those exact words, that's what they're saying because chances are, if they are, other people are saying it also, and they go, wow, you're in my head.
That's a great approach. As ad managers, we can [00:04:30] ask our clients to do this because chances are a lot of the time our clients come to us who haven't done this and they say, oh my audience is this and it's actually something else. So when you send that survey out though, we want them to respond to it.
And we don't want it to be just like, here, do me a favor and do this. How do we even create that the wording in that survey to entice people to fill it out.
Mara: Yeah, so what I [00:05:00] share is we usually send this out via emails. Typically what we do when we're working with one of our copywriting clients, is we say that we're asking for this information because we're about to roll out a whole bunch of free content, free trainings, paid trainings as well.
And we want to make sure that we are giving them exactly what they need help with. We don't ever offer an incentive, like a free gift or something that we're going to send them in the mail. I know that there are [00:05:30] some that do choose to do it that way, but that's not something that we typically do. And so we really just phrase it about being beneficial to them so that we can know from them how we can best help and serve them.
Jody: Awesome. Love it. It's like we've got these, we are wanting to customize your journey, make it as best as possible and here's all these free resources. Who doesn't love free resources? And that's a great way to show people how amazing you are. Awesome. So that's fantastic.
Now, often [00:06:00] there’s references to copywriting formulas and they can be great for people, like a lot of ad managers are suddenly copywriters, when they learn how to run ads, they have clients and they've got to write copy.
So there's frameworks like AIDA. Attention, Interest, Desire, Action, or PAS, Pain, Agitate Solution. What's your thoughts when you are creating, you've got such in depth skills and it's amazing.
So what are your kind of frameworks? How do you go about crafting this copy once you know what those pain points are [00:06:30] for the person you're talking to?
Mara: Yeah, so like a lot of your listeners, I kind of got thrown into this too. I convinced my father to hire me and he gave me a job as the social and alternative media marketing director for his business at the time that he is now sold.
And this was before Facebook ads were even around. And as part of my work, I had to figure out how to write sales copy. And then eventually I [00:07:00] made enough money for him that he decided that I deserved to be trained by him, which at the time I wasn't so thrilled about. But now, it's given me a good life, this skill, I'm pretty happy about it.
And so I got thrown into it too. Which means the way that I learned is different than a lot of people learn now. I didn't actually learn with formulas and things like that, I learned by doing. And then my father would actually sit down with me and go over every piece of sales [00:07:30] copy with me that I wrote with a red pen, and he would mark what I did wrong and why, and what I did right, and why. And then I had to fix it over and over and over again for three years.
So that's how I learned. I don't personally use templates and formulas. There's some that I have created as starting points over the years of a lot of trial and and error that we use internally in our agency, but I think templates and formulas are great for someone who's just getting started and needs a good starting point.
But [00:08:00] what templates and formulas don't account for is your intuition and your knowledge about the subject matter. It also doesn't account for the persona and personality of the brand voice. So what I like to do when I'm writing, I like to think about about it in a couple of ways.
So one, typically, when I sit down to write something brand new, I think about a friend that I have that would be a [00:08:30] great ideal client or customer for this thing that I'm selling, and I think about what I would need to say to him or her to make a great case to get them to say yes.
When you think about it from that perspective of writing to a friend, it takes away a lot of the angst and anxiety about getting it perfect because when you sit down to write an email per se, to your friend, you don't really think about how to make this the most perfect thing in the world.
But when you're sitting down to write copy for your [00:09:00] business or for a client's business, like there's this extra level of pressure. So I like to remove that pressure by writing as if I'm writing to a friend. The other thing I'd like to do is think about what would someone have to say to me to get me to say yes.
Oftentimes, like that's one great starting place that you can use when you're writing your ads per se. What would I need to see in my newsfeed or what would I need to see when I'm scrolling through Instagram [00:09:30] that would capture my attention and get me to want to click on this and say yes to this.
I think we often lose sight of that when we're sticking to a formula or a format too much. And so I would start there. Jody, something that you don't know about me, or maybe you do know this about me, I don't know. We're about to find out. So when Covid started, in April of 2020, I decided I wanted to get into e-commerce and I started a beach [00:10:00] towel store when all of the beaches were closed and you couldn't even leave the house.
And I thought this was a great idea, and for some reason it was a great idea because we went viral. I ended up selling 800,000 beach towels in two and a half months from Facebook and Instagram ads. And I ran those ads myself!
Mara: Yeah, it was wild. It was wild. And I ran those ads myself and I wrote them myself.
And my number one winning ad had [00:10:30] like 7,000 shares and like 30 some thousand comments. It was insane, and it was literally just a testimonial from a customer. That's all it was. It had five little emoji stars and it was the testimonial and then in the picture of the beach towel, and there's no formula or format that would've told me to write that, but it was just an intuition thing, so you don't always have to follow format or formula.
It's just a great starting place.
Jody: Wow, that is an epic story. 800,000 beach towels. When beaches were closed, everyone [00:11:00] was crazy.
Mara: Oh, I'm sorry. I said 800,000 beach towels. It was $800,000 in beach towels. It was about 20,000 beach towels.
Jody: Oh, right. Well, that's amazing. That is awesome. So, like you say, intuition's a big part of it.
And I think yes, when we do get caught up, okay, here's the attention, here's the interest, here's the desire, we can end up feeling very robotic. Like you said, it was intuition, it was that personal thing. It was like thinking of yourself, thinking of a friend and bringing that into it.
So with that [00:11:30] in mind, what about stories? Because everyone says use stories in your copy, what's your thoughts, tips, suggestions about storytelling in your copywriting?
Mara: Yeah, I love using storytelling and copywriting for a couple reasons. One, I think it's interesting and engaging to read.
And if nobody's reading your copy, nobody's going to buy anything from you. And if nobody's buying anything from you, you're not making money. And if you're not making money, you're pretty much toast. So that's one of the reasons I like using stories. [00:12:00]
Another reason I really like using stories is because they can illustrate points for people that might be more difficult to do just by telling somebody what they should know.
You can use a story, especially if there's a really good analogy to illustrate a point. So that's why we like to use stories. I am actually testing out some story ads right now for a t-shirt company that I'm a partner in. And we wrote some [00:12:30] stories and had some videos filmed telling and sharing the stories behind the meaning of each shirt.
And we're running those now and we're testing those now. And we've gotten some initial sales. I'm excited to see how they go and like you said, there's a lot of formulas and formats for stories and at the same time, I feel like sometimes when the formulas and formats are followed, a big part of the story that might be the most important part gets missed.
Or the heart and soul [00:13:00] and the essence behind the story gets missed. So, again, a great starting place, but I would really use your intuition about what needs to be included in that story. And I've kind of found that when you share your heart and soul and message and mission behind whatever it is that you're selling, that message always lands.
It always captures the attention of the right person as long as it's authentic and true and real. So that would be a great place to tap into the [00:13:30] meaning of your product or programs or services for you or for your client when you're starting to write ads like that.
Jody: Awesome. So that makes me think, for a lot of ad managers, we can get quite technical and we could be saying, your Facebook ads aren't working because your landing page sucks, or blah blah. Or if you're frustrated with Facebook ads, give me a call. So we can just be very much Facebook ads all the time, which doesn't get much engagement on our posts and content.
So how do you think we can change that [00:14:00] and make it more story-like so that we get more engagement on our content and we're not just getting crickets. How do we appeal to that business owner in a story way?
Mara: So here's just one idea off the top of my head is let's say you had a Facebook ad client who was a great success story for you.
You came into their business, they were kind of struggling with ads, maybe they were like a lot of [00:14:30] people who I imagine ad managers talk to where they have had challenging experiences with Facebook and have had other challenging experiences with hiring other Facebook ad managers before and are like kind of skeptical about even hiring one to begin with.
So find a client like that, that you've helped that started in that place where most of your prospects are, that you were able to get a really big win for, and I would share that story.
That case [00:15:00] study could be an amazing post. It could be an amazing email. It could potentially be an amazing ad for your business as well.
It could make amazing piece of content to send out as a warmup series before you get on the phone with somebody. And that would be a way to tie story into what you do and make what you do sound even more interesting. Also hit some of those pain points and bust some of those objections ahead of time before you even talk to a [00:15:30] prospect on the phone.
That's one of the really awesome things about sales copy. Sales copy should make it easier for you to close people on one-to-one sales conversations because you can utilize words in advance to be able to bust objections before you even talk to somebody, and that could then help make that sales call a lot easier for you.
Jody: Awesome. That's the sales copy, the writing on the page, all that kind of stuff. [00:16:00] Like you said, by the time someone gets on a call with you, they're already pretty much all warmed up and they're just checking all the Ts and they're dotting all the Is here and ready to come on board.
Now, a lot of ad managers will have some sort of lead magnet or something they create for their audience, like ‘Three biggest mistakes advertisers make on Facebook’, for example, so they get leads in. But then they're scratching their head going, [00:16:30] I don't have an email sequence, so what do I do for emails? Any tips there?
Or it's like, okay, what could be like a seven step framework then? What could be like an email sequence that would nurture that person and educate them to come from, here's opting in for the guide to booking a call.
Mara: And booking a call to talk about done for you ad services?
Mara: Okay. Okay, cool. What I would look at doing is, okay, there's [00:17:00] a term that I created with my father called copy choreography, which could also be called campaign choreography. I sometimes say copy choreography or campaign choreography, but I mean the same thing.
And what this is, it’s the sequencing of your campaign, of your email series, backed by buyer psychology that will help you see a spike in response. The way this came about is I started to [00:17:30] naturally realize that the email campaigns I was working on, we would get a big increase in response at the end of the campaign when the cart was closing, or the price was going up, or the bonuses were going away, which is a very natural thing to happen.
And I started to ask myself, well, how can I create multiple sales spikes throughout a campaign so I'm not just waiting till the end?
How can we do that throughout? So I would keep that in [00:18:00] mind as I was mapping out like a seven email series to introduce myself to a new audience and invite them to book a discovery call with me.
There's a couple of ways that you could do that. So I would start to think about not just booking a call, but is there a specific offer I can make somebody for booking the call that's going to be beneficial for them?
We write a lot of [00:18:30] book a call email campaigns. These are email campaigns that are meant to book sales calls. And so typically what we'll do is we'll add a bonus in. So the truth is, someone could book a call with you whenever, right? If someone wants to hire you, you’re probably pretty open to talking to them most of the time, unless you're completely maxed out.
So to encourage the booking of the call, you could add a bonus in that's going to expire. So that could be that if they do sign up to work with you, they get some sort of [00:19:00] extra bonus. Maybe it's like 50 custom, I'm just making this up, 50 custom organic social media graphics, or maybe they get all of their ad copy written for free, which you were probably going to do anyway, or something like that, right?
You can figure out what that bonus is that works for you, and position that as the bonus. And that could be the thing that creates the spike in people taking you up on that opportunity to talk to at the end of the [00:19:30] campaign. And then I would think about what else I could offer in the middle of the campaign to create maybe a secondary spike.
So that could, could look like a discount. I don't know your stance on that. I know some people have different stances on that, that could look like, when you book today, not only will you get my bonus, you'll also get $500 off your first month. That is an option if it feels right and aligned for you.
And then I would make sure that these deadlines [00:20:00] are prevalent inside of the emails that are going out, so it's very clear that these bonuses are expiring throughout the campaign.
On top of that, I think there's other content that really needs to be addressed in this warm up series to position you as an expert, position you as the best choice and position you as the person that they should contact, like right now, like today.
And so that could be your story of how you got into this and the [00:20:30] rise of your success and the successes you've seen, that could be one email in and of itself. You could have an email that is the case study of a really great client success from how they came to you as that jaded business owner that ‘never wants to work with an ads manager ever again’ or thinks Facebook is the devil to making a substantial living off of Facebook.
Probably have a couple of those success stories. And I would start to think [00:21:00] about these different stories that you could tell in the campaign in order to be able to get these points across that you are the expert, you are the best choice, and that they need to book a call with you today, like right now.
Jody: Awesome. There's a lot of great ideas in there, and I love that. Yes, I completely get the discounts. Are you on board with discounts? There’s a time and place. You could also say I'll pay for your first $500 in ad [00:21:30] spend. So that's positioned as a bonus kind of thing.
But instead of saying here's a $500 discount, where you'll take that off, it's like you'll take it off by giving it back to them as their ad spend or something.
Mara: I love that.
Jody: Thank you! Because we always see this when running ads and running launches for clients when we're in the last few hours.
This is when we'll see a spike. How can you put these little incentives in along the way? So that's [00:22:00] absolutely brilliant. You mentioned that you called, what was your term for that campaign?
Mara: Copy choreography or campaign choreography.
Jody: Oh, that just sounds amazing. That sounds awesome.
Now that made me think about a sales page. So we've got our clients, we're sending all this traffic to the sales page, but the sales page just isn't converting. And yes, it might be the copy on the page. It might not be hitting the pain points, but even if you've got amazing copy, what sort of impact does [00:22:30] the layout of the page actually have? Is that something that impacts it?
Mara: Yeah, so that is something that we call copy cosmetics. Copy cosmetics.
Jody: I saw your reel. I was like, okay, I'm bringing that back to people's attention here.
Mara: Yeah, yeah. I love that.
So copy cosmetics are the way that the words look on a page or on the screen. And the whole premise of this is that if your words look boring, people are going to [00:23:00] think that they're boring. They think they're boring, they're not going to read them. And then we know what happens after that. You're not going to sell anything.
And so what we want to do is want to make the copy look interesting and exciting to read. So that's Copy Cosmetics. Now most copywriters will tell you that the copy is the number one driver of the sales. They are responsible for all the sales. There might even be like a little like, [00:23:30] God complex going on with some copywriters these days.
I'm going to call BS on that. I don't think that's true. I think that it's 50%, what the words say, 50%, how the words look. They're both equally as important. They're both important and they're both equally as important. And so what you want to do is you want to make sure that your sales page not only has great words, but looks really exciting and interesting as well.
With one little [00:24:00] caveat to this, which is, I've found that just from all of our split testing of design, that a more simplified page that still looks interesting sleek, modern, classy but not overly designed works best. Pages that have crazy branding, lots of interaction and interactive things moving [00:24:30] around typically don't perform as well from a conversion standpoint to like the clean, crisp look, but you still get to make it interesting.
So like there's some things that you can do to make it interesting. So using different font sizes. Bolding, italics, different colors. Having a video at the top of the page, for example, one of the things I really like to do is just go to like Fiverr or something like that and have someone make a 3D product mockup of the thing [00:25:00] that's being sold and have it look really nice and use that product mockup throughout the page as another form of copy cosmetics.
Also, I think that in this digital world that we have, sometimes it's really hard for people to understand what they're getting when it lives in a digital format. So they might know they're getting like video trainings and they might know that they're getting e-books, but you can find educational videos on YouTube for free.
[00:25:30] You can find e-books for free. And so I really think that when you've got a really great, beautiful graphic that shows what you're going to get, it adds an extroversion of perceived value to the program that's being sold. So that's another way that you can make your pages look awesome and add a touch of copy cosmetics.
Jody: Love it. Copy cosmetics. Great term. Now with that as well that made me think. There's a lot of variations. [00:26:00] There's product, offer, price point, et cetera. But can you give me some general ideas or benchmarks of what you actually are looking for with conversion rates? Like on a sales page for example, like I know, is it a thousand dollar product, is it a $10,000 product, what is it?
But do you have some idea that you can guide us with, what do you like to shoot for?
Mara: Yeah, on average, so industry average for sales page is typically about 2%. That's industry average. We try to aim a lot higher than that. There [00:26:30] is a personal development guy that I follow, Michael Burnoff and his whole slogan and he’s got t-shirts that say ‘Average Sucks’.
And so that's my thought about it too. Average copy conversions, they suck. And so we like to achieve a lot higher than that. My number one converting sales page of all times converted 52% of site visitors to buyers. That's not normal. That’s not normal. It is [00:27:00] amazing. I was pretty excited about it.
It's not normal. I've got a page right now that we just launched that's converting at 10.9% from TikTok traffic. So organic traffic. So I'm pretty stoked about that. So industry average is about 2%, but we like to aim a lot higher than that. For your clients, for all the ad managers listening to this, the higher that conversion rate, the more ROAS they're going to get for their ad spend.
Right. [00:27:30] And I imagine that's one of the benchmarks that we'll want to report on. And if you have an average page, you're going to have an average ROAS. So we don't want that.
Jody: Awesome. That's great. Yes. Average sucks. We certainly want to go above average. Now while we're here, and it's come to mind and this will be sort of the last little topic here.
You knew this was coming, the AI that is on everybody's lips ChatGPT. [00:28:00] As a copywriter, as an amazing expert pro, leader of the direct response, the best female direct response writer. What's your thoughts on ChatGPT?
Mara: Yeah, so ChatGPT, AI, it's not going away, right? So I think that what we really get to do is we get to figure out how we can use it for our benefit.
So, one easy way to use it [00:28:30] for your benefit is for idea generation. Idea generation. I've played around with it and have asked for ideas or even asked it to write emails for me and the ideas that they've come back, ‘they’ like it's a thing. I don't know, but it has come back with, are in some cases, ideas that never would have crossed my mind.
And so it allows for us to generate new ideas, have new [00:29:00] angles that we can try and test inside of a market. And I think that is awesome. The emails that I have worked with it on, on having it write for me, to me, felt generic, average, vanilla, lacking of personality. Now, I understand that there's a training period of training ChatGPT to really grasp your voice and I fully understand that.
But [00:29:30] I don't know that that is the easiest thing to do. And it's something like we're kind of exploring right now because it just came out. And so for right now, I think we use it for what it is the most helpful with right now, which is idea generation and a great starting point for us.
And we watch and we see how it evolves as we go. So those are my thoughts on it for right now.
Jody: Awesome. The idea generation, because that's where so many people get stuck. I know a lot of ad managers are like, ‘oh, what am I going to talk about with [00:30:00] ads?’ Here we go. ‘What's your click through rate?’ Again.
It can just be those prompts like we were saying earlier about an email sequence for someone who's opted in to invite them to book a call. Give me some ideas or suggestions for seven emails to encourage people to book a call for Facebook ad management.
Then, like you said, it's learning. So as you put more information in, you give it a thumbs up, thumbs down, better information back. [00:30:30] It'll improve the learning for you. It's a great starting point. But then putting in that human factor, is still important. Those stories and case studies, the information that you're getting back from people when you are actually on calls with them, using their exact words and weaving all that into it is what's going to make it powerful.
Mara: Yeah. And the thing about ChatGPT is it doesn't have a heart and a soul and it doesn't have a message and it doesn't have a mission. [00:31:00] And you do right? Or your client does. The person behind the brand. They do. And that matters and it really matters in the messaging. So that shouldn't be forgotten in this world of AI.
That what it takes to make real human connection and engagement with another human. And so right now I don't think it can do that. So I think we use it for how it can help.
Jody: Yep. Just [00:31:30] getting things initially started and then we put that human touch in that heart and soul like you said.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mara. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. Love talking about the copy and the aspects, because like I said earlier, we can drive traffic to people's sites, but if they don't know their audience, if they don't know who they're talking to, if they don't have this amazing copy. then we can't get those sales or those results.
So how can people learn more about you? Where can they go?
Mara: Thank you for asking. So [00:32:00] my hub for everything is maraglazer.com. You can come along and join me there and there you can find some free email templates to get more new clients, which you could use for your Facebook ad agency. And you can also learn how you or your clients can hire us to write their sales pages and their emails for them as well for their Facebook funnels.
So you can just go to maraglazer.com. And then I recently started dabbling with TikTok and with Instagram, and I'm putting out free videos every day, sharing [00:32:30] some of my copywriting teachings, like some of the ones we talked about here. So you can find me on those sites as @themaraglazer.
Jody: Fantastic. Now with that as well at the top I referred to you as the internet marketing or marketing mafia. You've got like a lot of street cred. So do you want to do some name dropping of like, people you have worked with? Is that allowed?
Mara: Yeah, that's allowed. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to do that.
So well, one, I've written for my father, Bill Glazer and his business partner for many years, Dan [00:33:00] Kennedy. And then we've written for Amy Porterfield. We've written for Stephan Speaks, lots of products that have been on Shark Tank, Chris Cardell. Dan Henry is another client, Kim Velez, who's pretty big on TikTok right now, too.
Money Man Myers. He's got the number one business live show on TikTok which is really cool. Those are just a few.
Jody: Yeah, that's right. So as you can see, Mara knows her stuff. She's worked with some [00:33:30] industry leaders and absolutely smashing it. So go check her out.
Do yourself a favor, do your clients a favor. It's really going to help you and your clients if you learn a bit. You don't have to be a copywriting pro, but if you just get an awareness of it and understand some of these points that Mara's been talking about you're going to go great.
So go follow her on TikTok and reels as well. Great information coming through. So thanks again, Mara. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you with us.
Mara: Thank you for having me. I had a great time.
Jody: Awesome. Glad to hear that [00:34:00] and thank you guys for being with us. Until next time, bye for now.